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Consider the Overall Aesthetics

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Consider the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:16 am

First of all let me State upfront that I don't wish to dissuade you guys from chopping up classic motorcycles and making your own ride, by sawing off this or that or tack welding on little perches and little boards to plant your seat on.

And I appreciate the mechanical problems you solve with swapping parts that don't belong together to make hopefully a unified harmonious machine that safe.

The one thing I notice that's lacking is nobody considers the overall Aesthetics and overall design. They all end up looking alike and they all end up looking like Frankenstein machine.

I have to say I don't care if it's Hagmann or doc chops or Orange County it all looks the same and its parts are sticking out geeky here and there........

nothing flows nothing's unified nothing is pleasing to the eye and that's fine.

it's just a machine to transport you..... but in this day and age can we bring it up to another level and make it a beautiful machine not just something that is a collection Parts sticking out here and there?

And don't get me started about the riding position with your feet stretched out forwards and your hands stretched out forward you look like a letter C. I don't get that.
I have notice to that the unfortunate trend of trying to put the rear seat below the rear wheel is making some of these riding positions rather sketchy?
Rather than just throwing rocks at me can you consider some of the older designs which placed function over form and the form follows function rather than the other way around?

Again this little vignette is in no way to disparage your creativity and you're fantastic problem-solving skills. But as a whole in this motorcycle Community I think we have sunk to the level of just chasing our Tails instead of breaking new ground. A esthetically.....

But maybe that's what everybody was crying when the UJM's were on the road. I have no way of knowing because I was busy trying to wear all those Japanese motorcycles out. After 50 years of riding motorcycles Maybe I am just looking backwards and I should just go to my shed then shut up.

Best regards, a happy Virago owner. May you drive a million miles.
M->
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Jake » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Mike, since your post seems to be directed at more than just the OP of the thread, and I can see this potentially growing far beyond the build thread it was posted, I split your post to a new thread.

I can't speak for everyone, tastes vary, what you like I do not and the same pertains to everyone else.

For instance, what you have done to the seat, I find unattractive and for me, it would not be comfortable at all, but it's what you want. Lowering the seat on a Virago could be a matter of comfort, exactly what you are trying to do. Perhaps you are tall, others may be vertically challenged and would rather be able to flat foot their motorcycle when it is stopped.

That is the issue I took from many earlier Yamaha ( and others ) street bikes where some had to tiptoe when they came to a stop or lean over one way or another to have solid footing.

Like you, I don't intend to dissuade or criticize your choice in modification, it's yours, as mine is mine. Personally, I don't like making changes that cannot be easily undone.
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: mark75 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:30 pm

I hear ya', but that's why Baskin-Robins has so many flavors.

and overalls can be real purdy, but I still like my coveralls - specially the Walls insulated ones in the winter. :rimshot: :poke: :lol:
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:01 pm

Tastes are like behinds; split. Personally, I find the stock original 750 okay, and the 920R/TR1 really nice for their day. The I also fancied the Midnight Specials back when. The 1984-on Viragos, OTOH, look all wrong to me, primarily due to the - to me - silly inclined position of the fuel tank. Adding tons of bling certainly did not help. Others love the looks of the Gen II bikes - if not, they would not have sold in the numbers they did.

Anyway, to me the majority of builds going in the cafe racer direction have been major improvements in the looks department.
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:47 pm

I suppose most anything looks better than a fuel tank inclined at a severe angle.

I have very long legs. That being said, I have noticed that.. "Touching the Ground is Over Rated".

Dual density foam, my feet under my thighs, I ride 4 to 5 hours in comfort. Inclined 12 to 15 degree to counter the relative wind. I copied my seat design from old 1960 to 70's BMW's

I I have never understood the desire or perceived importance of flat-footing. Having done enough of Trials..... I'm inclined to keep my foot on the pegs.

But I've noticed that the designers try to keep a central line flowing even if they have to use a stripe to continue from the tank to the seat to the rear fender. Or from the tank down to the side cover to the rear wheel.
The parts appear to have a common plane of attachment even if it's an illusion.

For that matter Yamaha employed a couple of Illusions to make the front end look longer than it actually was.

Which is why I suggest people reverse the illusion rather than sticking on R6 Forks or GSXR Forks which are terrific Forks but they are too short because the steering head is too high.

I need the bike to lean at 45 - 48 degrees. Why? that's how I drive. Hard!

I am still looking for a solution for a tail light. A smooth sculpted trim tail light not a peanut tail lights that looks like it belongs on it tricycle.

Because I have room under the side cover because of the subtank being deleted I may put my tools down there and use the toolbox compartment for the tail light..... it's still under consideration nothing has been resolved yet.

This is been a daily driver and 7 years in the making. And generation 2 bikes are much harder to work on to do these modifications than Generation 1 bikes.

Wish I had bought a XV 920 when they were not all thrashed and cut up.

M->
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:51 pm

Lean angle must be measured with suspension compressed - at 45 degrees of lean, you have an extra G to contend with, which will almost collapse the suspension. Due to the cornering forces acting on the suspension, a stock Virago won't come close to 40 degrees of lean. Not even 35 degrees. I used a set of pegs from an 1100 Virago on my 1982 750 Virago with a longer shock and a taller (18in) rear wheel and stiffer fork springs with more preload, and the pegs would drag heavily during mildly spirited riding and were soon ground away. My stock XV1100 Virago scraped noticeably sooner. Even a stock 920R/TR1 will not reach 40 degrees.

If you want 45 degrees or more of lean angle, you must look outside the cruiser world.
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:07 pm

With Progressive Springs on the front... and taller shocks by Progressive Suspension on the rear and little bit more compliant spring rates, my bike has plenty of ground clearance especially since the rear set pegs are a little bit higher.

Yamaha made the bike with plenty of ground clearance I don't know why yours is dragging unless you have forward controls and stock shocks?.... that's so odd. Your experience is contrary to what I have experienced and actually measured.

Are you running radial tires or super huge low-profile?

I chose that bike for the engine... everything else is fixable.
BTW.....
It's a Standard now not a Cruiser.

I now run out of tread with sport tires and I'm just grazing my sole of the foot.

With respect to the Aesthetics angle on this discussion I had to look long and hard for a large fuel tank that would fit over that big spine of an air box I wanted to carry a respectable amount of fuel and get rid of that subtank and fuel pump.

Not that it caused me any problem. I just thought the teardrop tank was Dreadful and reminded me of a Cruiser. Maybe Dreadful is the wrong word perhaps out of place is the correct term

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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:59 am

Found a illustrative example. The form flows front-to-rear.... it's not jarring, harsh on the eyes and it doesn't have a lot of technology to pull it off.
M->
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:29 am

Michael Torre wrote:With Progressive Springs on the front... and taller shocks by Progressive Suspension on the rear and little bit more compliant spring rates, my bike has plenty of ground clearance especially since the rear set pegs are a little bit higher.

Yamaha made the bike with plenty of ground clearance I don't know why yours is dragging unless you have forward controls and stock shocks?.... that's so odd. Your experience is contrary to what I have experienced and actually measured.

Are you running radial tires or super huge low-profile?


M->


100/90-19 front and 120/90-18 rear is what I ran on the modified Gen One 750. XT600Z rear shock with stiffer spring that also raised the rear. In total, wheel + shock, hoisted the rear of the bike 30 mm, and the front went up about the same amount when under load. With the stock XV750SE pegs, I could nearly use all the thread of the tires when scraping the pegs and centre stand, but the bike was far from offering surplus cornering clearance. The XV1100 was all stock. Compared to a sportbike, even a well raised Virago of any model will start scraping when barely off vertical.
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:30 am

Michael Torre wrote:Found a illustrative example. The form flows front-to-rear.... it's not jarring, harsh on the eyes and it doesn't have a lot of technology to pull it off.
M->



I guess we just have different tastes and opinions on what flows and not. Luckily, there are bikes available to suit just about everyone's taste :cl:
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm

Well mmmmm not really, kind sir.

If you go to the design school or talk to somebody who's been the design school the employ people to make products that appeal to the human mind.

They have discovered there's certain proportions and certain constructions for the humans have a standard in your mind. Google.. Golden rectangle or Fibonacci Sequence it's quite interesting. I daresay captivating.......... . If you follow that thread to its logical conclusion you will end up with a shocking discovery that will shake you to your core.

Possibly you do a disservice to yourself by attempting to sweep it under the rug with the phrase well you have your taste and I have mine.
That may be true but let's not forget our Universal standards.

Rabbit-hole warnings....
Despite the relativists claims to the contrary there are Universal human standards that have been with us from the beginning.

M->
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:04 pm

faffi wrote:
Michael Torre wrote:With Progressive Springs on the front... and taller shocks by Progressive Suspension on the rear and little bit more compliant spring rates, my bike has plenty of ground clearance especially since the rear set pegs are a little bit higher.

Yamaha made the bike with plenty of ground clearance I don't know why yours is dragging unless you have forward controls and stock shocks?.... that's so odd. Your experience is contrary to what I have experienced and actually measured.

Are you running radial tires or super huge low-profile?


M->


100/90-19 front and 120/90-18 rear is what I ran on the modified Gen One 750. XT600Z rear shock with stiffer spring that also raised the rear. In total, wheel + shock, hoisted the rear of the bike 30 mm, and the front went up about the same amount when under load. With the stock XV750SE pegs, I could nearly use all the thread of the tires when scraping the pegs and centre stand, but the bike was far from offering surplus cornering clearance. The XV1100 was all stock. Compared to a sportbike, even a well raised Virago of any model will start scraping when barely off vertical.


I'm confused.
The very last sentence is so extreme out of touch with what I've seen I don't even know how to address that...... I've been riding sport bikes half my life.

So I simply don't know how to relate to that image. If one runs off the edge of the tread one simply does not have anywhere else to go.....

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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:54 pm

You can lean a loooong way after reaching the edge of the tire. The Michelin PR4 on the rear of my Deauville doesn't have a hint of virgin rubber, yet the front has more than an half inch of unused thread on its sides. The bike doesn't have enough cornering clearance to use all on the front, but I know from my raised MT07 (FZ07 in USA) that I can reach the edges also on the front without issues for the rear. In fact, even when the front has reach the edges, there are more grip available for further lean, provided the machine has enough ground clearance, which the 07 doesn't. The tires will distort and conform to the road.

Note that there is very little grip left for braking and acceleration when leaned well over, but there is - on good asphalt - grip to corner.

If you watch this video, you will see that the tires has their edges onto the ground well before the bikes are at maximum lean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgaQsCLNKNw
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: nanno » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:15 pm

Not everyone on here installs R6 forks, but also not everyone has a lot of time for cleaning their bike. The aesthetics hidden in a TR1 are only bettered by a very few other bikes. I admit, the tail-piece needs my body-weight to be the right distance from the rear tyre, but then again, this is the case most of the time.

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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:54 pm

I lusted for a TR1 back when they first appeared in 1981, but could not legally ride one until the summer of 1982. And then I lacked the money. Once I had the money, on the fall of 1983, they had just sold their last TR1, so I bought an XJ750 Seca instead. The TR1, Seca and CB750F all sold for the same price, although the TR1 was a 1981 leftover.
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Re: Nobody Considers the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Michael Torre » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:45 am

What has been your favorite?

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Re: Consider the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm

Of all my bikes, or the bikes mentioned here? I really liked the scrambler I made from the XV750 Virago, with the upgrades. Sure, the suspension and brakes were not up to current standards, and the XV1100 engine is geared too short and revving too high for my taste, but it was still a competent bike. In the first offroad rally I joined - and the first time I've ever ventured more offroad than the odd gravel road - I had no trouble staying with the fast group. And I survived a muddy section upright that saw the tour leader topple over on his new R1200GS. In other words, the bike was quite flattering and making life easy for a novice.

Based on what I learned from that scrambler, I now have Greg in Austria building me an 1100 version of the 920R/TR1 engine with some additional performance upgrades. I opted for the chain drive model so that I can gear it taller - I want about 2700 rpm @ 60 mph in top gear, compared to 3500 for a stock 1100 Virago and 3300 for my scrambler with the taller rear wheel. The bike will be styled along the lines of the 650 Seca along with more modern wheels, brakes and suspension. I will retain the stock diameter of the 18in rear wheel and 19 in front, but fit a bit wider rims and tyres; 3.50 rear with a 140/80 rubber and a 2.50 front featuring a 110/80.

Sorry if I didn't answer your question - and for rambling on a bit ;)
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Re: Consider the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: dazthebiker » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:41 am

Your being wildly optimistic if you think your getting a virago anywhere near 48 degrees lean angle, doesn't matter who you are, its just not happening.

Thanks for the preachy posts about what we should and shouldn't do with out bikes as well, ill be sure not to give it a moments thought next time im cutting one up! For the record i think your own bike looks crap!

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Re: Consider the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: faffi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:11 pm

Rather blunt, but to the point :):
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Re: Consider the Overall Aesthetics

PostAuthor: Flyingdog » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:22 pm

dazthebiker wrote:Thanks for the preachy posts about what we should and shouldn't do with out bikes as well, ill be sure not to give it a moments thought next time im cutting one up! For the record i think your own bike looks crap!


Oh Come On Daz...tell us what ya really think!

I'm trying to figure out what the hell this means: Outside of just being guidelines and still look ugly as sin.

Michael Torre wrote:If you go to the design school or talk to somebody who's been the design school the employ people to make products that appeal to the human mind.

They have discovered there's certain proportions and certain constructions for the humans have a standard in your mind. Google.. Golden rectangle or Fibonacci Sequence it's quite interesting. I daresay captivating.......... . If you follow that thread to its logical conclusion you will end up with a shocking discovery that will shake you to your core.

Possibly you do a disservice to yourself by attempting to sweep it under the rug with the phrase well you have your taste and I have mine.
That may be true but let's not forget our Universal standards.

Rabbit-hole warnings....
Despite the relativists claims to the contrary there are Universal human standards that have been with us from the beginning.
M->


Outside of just being guidelines and still look ugly as sin. Only other time I hear ravings like this, is when someone ran outta their meds.



Only trusim I see outta all that was said:

Michael Torre wrote: Maybe I am just looking backwards and I should just go to my shed then shut up.M->


While I don't advocate someone totally shut'n up with their opinion...I would suggest taking alittle soap, water and a few cleaning rags with ya.

Oh yea..please explain what you mean your bike is a "Standard" vs "Cruiser". Cuz you put a straight seat and fork boots on?
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