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1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

Everything about swapping a motor on your Virago.
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1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: ro7939 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:34 am

I consider starting from scratch to make a semi-cafe Yamaha 1000/1100 V-twin w/foot controls located under the rider's center of gravity and a slight forward upper body tilt.

I know anything is possible with infinite financing, which I lack. How costly and/or difficult is the subject swap? What are the biggest impediments to the swap? I always preferred the bigger engines for their obviously greater torque and power.

To build my ideal semi-cafe bike, compared to the 700/1000/1100, the earlier 750/920 frame and chassis seem to need less mods: the latter has mono shock, about 2 inch shorter wheelbase, and less steering rake. The former bikes have much more extreme cruiser ergonomics.

Thank you kindly!

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: nanno » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:19 am

As long as you stay shaft- or chain-drive (depending on what you started out with), you can swap the cases as you wish, but have to change the engine mounts accordingly, i.e. you can fit an XV1100 engine in a 750 frame, but you have to fit the mounts from the 750 on the 1100 heads.
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: mark75 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:00 pm

Howdy!

Welcome to VTF.

:yup:
it's not a major problem swapping 1100 (from a Gen-II 1-piece frame) into 750 (2-piece Gen-I) frame - most chassis / furniture parts are "off-the-shelf" and plug-n-play between (700-1100) Gen-II models.
[most external engine dimensions are the same]

you'll need the 1000/1100 ignition box (TCI) & want the pressure sensor (harness can be adapted)

as said, you'll need the mounts for the receiving (2 piece frame) bike. (attachment points differ, but are there)
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: ro7939 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:48 am

Thank you!

More info: I prior owned and long ago sold two XV920R's, both a red '80 and silver '82, the latter which I bought new. I'm in my mid 60s and owned around 75 bikes or more, but none right now. I also owned 3 early 80s XZ550 Vision twins. I always thought that a bike that had the Vision's performance but with the torque curve of the 920 would be virtually ideal. If you never rode a Vision, for its era it had phenomenal performance. After I became infinitely familiar with a highly technical canyon on the Vision, only 2 particular riders on superbikes ever beat me, and I routinely flew by other superbikes like they dropped anchor.

Acceleration wise, the 920 would pull ahead of a Vision at low RPM, but as speed increased the Vision would make up the difference and a bit more. Cornering/braking wise, the Vision would incinerate a stock 920 after the first curve and never look back, as you'd expect considering the 75# weight penalty, 5 inch longer WB, and older cruiser-based geometry.

If you folks don't mind, I'll indulge you for a lot of info. You're more than welcome to contradict any false expectation on my part.

Cornering wise, the bigger the motor the greater the reciprocating weight, and the greater the bike resists change in cornering angle: a vertical bike tends to stay vertical, and a bike leaned one direction tends to resist transition to the opposite direction. So theoretically a 700 engine has the best cornering potential; but still, being as heavy as I am, I'd prefer the 1000 or 1100. The fatter and taller the torque curve the more fun is it every single time you twist the grip.

IIRC, when the 1k arrived, a pro journalist was happily surprised how much stronger it was vs. his 920R like mine. Do you agree with that?

T/F: 1k and 1100 have reliable starters; the 750/920 problem is banished.

IIRC the 920 and 750 have the same stroke, while the 700 has shorter stroke. If known, I respectfully request the bore/stroke for the 920, 1k, and 1100. Besides the aforementioned starter, what are other major engine differences from the 920 to 1k, and 1k to 1100?

Other than the aforementioned less reciprocating mass, is there reason to prefer the 1k over the 1100? If yes, what?

Long term service life is not an issue; I won't be piling up the miles.

A friend of mine does world class head work; he built a pro AMA bike that came in 2nd behind Ben Bostrum. He shall likely do some head work. Beyond head work, muffler and carburetion upgrades, are there methods to increase HP without lowering or narrowing the torque curve? if yes, what?

Admittedly stupid Q, forgive me! Fuel injection is cost-prohibitive, right? I'm at high elevation, and frankly, after owning a single with FI I'm not enthusiastic about carburetors. Presuming FI is out: what are the best carbs for my application? Cost? (Several times and for unknown reason my 920 would spit and loosen a carb-to-rubber intake manifold joint.)

Air box: I'm sure I'll get flack for this, but I'm a stickler for stock air box over any exposed to the air filter such as foam pods, K&N pods, and/or velocity stacks. (Air box mods are fine. BTW, IIRC, one of the reasons the Vision had such a wide torque curve is because it had variable vacuum controlled air box volume.) For several reasons I prefer OEM air box: w/exposed filters any external air pressure difference (wind gust or rain) between the cylinders unbalances performance commensurately. OEM air box always provides almost exactly the same pressure to both cylinders. IMO in every case a stock air box provides the tallest and widest torque curve; if I wanted a 4-cylinder torque curve I'd get a 4-cyl. A 2021 KTM Super Duke 1300 twin has an air box as big or bigger than the fuel tank, it has an epic torque curve, and that's not a coincidence. OEM air box is quieter.

How would you describe the differences in air box volume 920 > 1k and 1K > 1100? How difficult is it to fit a 1k or 1100 air box to a 750/920 frame?

Thanks again for the welcome! I hope I didn't wear it out already!

RJ

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: nanno » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:26 am

Follow the link in my signature and then maybe afterwards (if you still want to know more), go on to my blog. This should answer all your questions (and some more).

Cheers,
Greg
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:38 am

I owned a Vision back in the '80's. It is was a good bike, however, the hickup at 2,000 and shaft jacking wasn't fun. I sold it for a GS1100E, all problems solved.

As far as the XV, it can be "modernized" to a degree. FI would be a nice addition. I'd love to see what you develop. I'd suggest Microsquirt, however, I'm sure there are other solutions available today.

Here's a link to my build threads that may give you ideas.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: ro7939 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:27 pm

Hellgate wrote:I owned a Vision back in the '80's. It is was a good bike, however, the hickup at 2,000 and shaft jacking wasn't fun. I sold it for a GS1100E, all problems solved.

As far as the XV, it can be "modernized" to a degree. FI would be a nice addition. I'd love to see what you develop. I'd suggest Microsquirt, however, I'm sure there are other solutions available today.

Here's a link to my build threads that may give you ideas.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app


Thank you very much!

The 83 Vision had major carb upgrade and worked flawlessly, at least on mine. The only carb problem I had was a co-worker's son who sat on my bike twisting the throttle for a long period time. The accelerator pump obliged, dumping so much raw fuel into the heads that I had to remove the plugs to start the engine, which as you likely know takes a few hours. The 83 with the huge and heavy fairing removed was about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: ro7939 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm

Do the 750 and 920 Virago frames have identical wheel base and steering head angle? IOW is there anything different to affect handling?

How extensive are the mods/upgrades to fit a reliable FI system such as Microsquirt? Parts prices are surprisingly reasonable, especially compared to high end carburetors.

I am happily surprised that nanno reports balanced performance with an OEM 750 head atop the 1100. His in-depth hands on exhaust system posts are equally welcome. I got a kick reading about his ride w/friends on open class 4-cyl bikes. I owned a Bandit 1200, and would always prefer the slender, smooth, torquey 920 motor over the wide, buzzy 1200 inline 4-cyl.

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: nanno » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:26 am

Hi there,

yep 750/920/981 (Euro XV1000 aka TR1) are all the same except what they are stamped on the headstock. The lower frame portion (where the swingarm attaches) makes it a chaindrive or shaftdrive model.

With regards to MS, yep it actually is that simple and if you want to be cheap, progress form MS to Speeduino and it's half the cost (and no proprietary hardware). The "big thing" would be to find some half decent throttle bodies and either come up with a linkage or use a 2in1 throttle cable as I do with two single carbs. Packaging in terms of fuel-pump, fuel pressure regulator and return is probably more challenging than the rest. Allegedly Speeduino these days even works with a setting called "distributor", which is a single input once per crank revolution, so there you go and bob's your aunty...
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: faffi » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:33 am

If you want the best handling you should find a TR1 engine and upgrade it with BT1100 internals and 700 heads, then fit it into a more modern chassis. I think one has fitted a shaft drive version to a Ducati frame, even, but my memory could be off.
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:54 am

ro7939 wrote:
Hellgate wrote:I owned a Vision back in the '80's. It is was a good bike, however, the hickup at 2,000 and shaft jacking wasn't fun. I sold it for a GS1100E, all problems solved.

As far as the XV, it can be "modernized" to a degree. FI would be a nice addition. I'd love to see what you develop. I'd suggest Microsquirt, however, I'm sure there are other solutions available today.

Here's a link to my build threads that may give you ideas.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app


Thank you very much!

The 83 Vision had major carb upgrade and worked flawlessly, at least on mine. The only carb problem I had was a co-worker's son who sat on my bike twisting the throttle for a long period time. The accelerator pump obliged, dumping so much raw fuel into the heads that I had to remove the plugs to start the engine, which as you likely know takes a few hours. The 83 with the huge and heavy fairing removed was about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.
Mine was an '82, not as nice a yours. That's the reason I sold it. I wanted dual discs, lower bars and improved fueling. I really liked the full fairing too. I had a GPz style quarter fairing on mine.
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: mark75 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:54 pm

ro7939 wrote:Thank you! ...

...

Air box: I'm sure I'll get flack for this, but I'm a stickler for stock air box over any exposed to the air filter such as foam pods, K&N pods, and/or velocity stacks. (Air box mods are fine. BTW, IIRC, one of the reasons the Vision had such a wide torque curve is because it had variable vacuum controlled air box volume.) For several reasons I prefer OEM air box: w/exposed filters any external air pressure difference (wind gust or rain) between the cylinders unbalances performance commensurately. OEM air box always provides almost exactly the same pressure to both cylinders. IMO in every case a stock air box provides the tallest and widest torque curve; if I wanted a 4-cylinder torque curve I'd get a 4-cyl. A 2021 KTM Super Duke 1300 twin has an air box as big or bigger than the fuel tank, it has an epic torque curve, and that's not a coincidence. OEM air box is quieter.

How would you describe the differences in air box volume 920 > 1k and 1K > 1100? How difficult is it to fit a 1k or 1100 air box to a 750/920 frame?

Thanks again for the welcome! I hope I didn't wear it out already!

RJ



implementing EFI is way above my skills, but I remember it has been done & reported on site.

sorry our 'search' function isn't what it used to be.

as I recall both Gen-I and G-II use the frame as an air-box with external filters.

and don't worry, at VTF we love sharing our experience, and/or finding out answers to any tech questions - esp. XV ones.

if it's happened to, or been done to a Virago, it's been posted here on VTF at some time. only wish our 'search' was better ...

but we do what we can for free i.e. run by donations only.
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Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride" ... E.A. Poe


Time flies >>> whether you're having fun __ :bike: or not :fan: ---

Any day above ground is a good day.
so Laissez les bon temps roulez. just roll safely --- Semper Vigilans...always watchful

"I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand." ... Confucius*

If you don't read the news you are not informed.
If you read the news you are misinformed.
... Mark Twain


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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: ro7939 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:46 pm

faffi wrote:If you want the best handling you should find a TR1 engine and upgrade it with BT1100 internals and 700 heads, then fit it into a more modern chassis. I think one has fitted a shaft drive version to a Ducati frame, even, but my memory could be off.


I am disappointed that Yamaha USA never imported the TR1; I might have bought one new and still be riding it.

OK, I compared engine specs, 920 (which I have X'd out for its inherently flawed starter), 1k, and 1100. Looks like the TR1 was my 920R but with a reliable starter and the 1k engine w/bigger bore and stroke. When I first heard of the TR1 this week I wrongly thought it was just the European name for my old 920R. Now I see it was better: the chassis of my 920R but with a reliable starter and bigger bore and stroke.

How difficult do you suspect it is to find a TR1 motor in rebuildable condition or better? Or at least the bottom end? Respective price ranges, complete motor and bottom end? If I find a complete motor I'd probably be better off having the seller remove the pistons and cylinders, no?

The problem for me is I'd have to buy overseas, then have the motor crated and shipped.

I would use 1100 pistons and cylinders, right?

Difference between 700 and 750 heads?

If anyone has any non-OEM chassis suggestions I'm all ears, um eyes. IIRC frame geometry changed to longer swingarms and engines moved forward to increase weight and friction on the front wheel, which increased cornering speeds. (It's still amazing how narrow is the big bore Yamaha V-twin, though it does seem a little long.)

For a period (which I regretted) I removed the drive chain enclosure on my 920R. That must have been the fattest cycle drive chain I've ever seen. IMO the biggest drawback of the enclosed chain is its un-sprung weight (big heavy alloy housing around the rear sprocket). I'd probably prefer a smaller exposed chain now. Obviously one of the best things about chain drive is almost infinite rear wheel choices.

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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:23 am

Just convert a 920R to the later starter. In for a penny, in for a pound.
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: faffi » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:24 am

You could also consider having Greg (member name nanno) build you an engine exactly to your specifications and have it shipped to you for fitting in your chassis of choice.
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: nanno » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:41 pm

faffi wrote:You could also consider having Greg (member name nanno) build you an engine exactly to your specifications and have it shipped to you for fitting in your chassis of choice.


Either that or get a left engine cover from a XV1000, the correct starter solenoid (Suzuki Samurai/Swift can be made to fit), starter gears and clutch from the XV1100 and a new XV1100 starter (plus a slightly longer cable from the solenoid to the starter) and you have all that's good/better on a TR1 than a 920R. Especially as the 920R is less likely to blow its headgasket because there's a bit more meat on both sides of the gasket.
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: Jake » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:01 pm

ro7939 wrote:
I am disappointed that Yamaha USA never imported the TR1; I might have bought one new and still be riding it.


The problem for me is I'd have to buy overseas, then have the motor crated and shipped.




Please add your location to your profile so no one has to ask in the future. With members all over the globe, some info is geographically specific.

Add your location at this link to your User Control Panel
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Re: 1000/1100 motor > 750/920 frame?

PostAuthor: Jake » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:04 pm

Remember guys, any business is to be discussed via PM. No price quotes, shipping quotes etc in this thread. Only threads in Classifieds are appropriate for such things.
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