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1984 is here

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1984 is here

PostAuthor: faffi » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:23 am

Do you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... technology
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: eslmatt » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 am

hmm, my internet traffic is government monitored...

I guess the real question is about productivity, if you look at the product per man hour of the USA it is lower than in Europe. I think they are trying to up the productivity by making peoples lives worse.

I saw a t-shirt once... Had pictures of pirates. Said "the beatings will continue until moral improves".

that said, with all the harassment that is coming to light from Hollywood, kinda makes sense. To keep a closer eye on people, too many problems. Unfortunately they are not new, but a least they are coming to light. Hopefully the next generation will have less abuse.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: mark75 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:14 pm

dunno if it's 'good' or 'bad', but IMO it's none of the gov't business what I do if I'm not on the Fed payroll [or company business when I'm at home]

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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: Guest » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm

It's a good thing if I am the employer.

It's a bad thing if I am the employee.

It's all in your perspective. As an employer, don't you want to know you are getting what you pay for ?

As an employee, you are obligated to provide labor for wages, unfortunately many have learned they can get paid as much as the next guy, without doing as much work.

The article is about workplace surveillance, a tool that makes it easier and more efficient to supervise an employee or employees without physically looking over their shoulder.

The same thing applies to a factory floor, or a sales floor, employees need supervisors. If it's the company's equipment, they should be able to monitor how, when and for how long it's being used.

Some need lots of supervision, others need little to none. It's the ones that need lots that create the need for such technology. We all have worked with slackers at some point, or maybe some that read this are the slackers.

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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: faffi » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:05 pm

I do not care how much my employees work, I care about the result. If one can do in 2 hours what another takes 4 hours of hard work to achieve, I do not demand that the former produce twice as much as the latter because they are paid to work 8 hours. Same with my sales people; I'd rather have a seller making great results from the beach than one working his or her @$$ off without managing to sell a lot.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: jonno51 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:33 am

CCTV/Identity cards/workplace monitoring - if you aren't doing wrong you have nothing to fear. Protect the people who live by the rules, not the criminals/parasites/scroungers/hangers on that make life more difficult for the rest of us.

If I buy a bag of 50 washers, I want to find 50 washers in it, not 35.

I do take Faffi's point about end result though.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:03 am

Having worked in the IT-business in the past, especially for some of the biggest banks in the world, implementing monitoring tools to prevent data leaks was part of my everyday job and actually all of our own guys had to sign papers before going to the customer, that their official company equipment was to be monitored 24/7. So far so good.

The thing I have huge stomachache with is an entirely different use-case. Those living in the US might not have noticed this as much, but vast parts of Europe are rapidly becoming more and more authoritarian. Now that in itself could be perceived as "their local problem", but it is not. It doesn't really matter if we're talking PIS in Poland or Orban in Hungary or Erdogan in Turkey, but they are all very strongly interested in getting their hands on surveillance technology that makes their own people easier to control. And they actually do. I have some very good friends in Istanbul and Ankara and while both of them used to be very outspoken I what they believe in and were actively participating in the democratic process, both have gone very, very quiet unless you speak to them in person.

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P.S.: As the Austrian government is currently going through post-election negotations, please have a look where the Austrian Freedom party comes from. A gentle hint, the phrase starts with N and their corporate logo used to be red and white, with a very well know sign in the middle... Authoritarism can quite quickly hit every democracy... just be aware of it and learn from other countries.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: faffi » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:19 am

Excellent post, Greg. It really is worrying, both the surveillance and onset of political dictatorship. We have been used to see this in several countries, but now we see it in countries which have been considered liberal and free for quite some time. Austria is one such nation that have surprised me for some years now, with extremists gaining support. But you see, in addition to the nations you mentioned, a similar, albeit at the moment less strong, trend in Sweden, Netherlands and more recently Spain. Also to some extent here in Norway, where fear and hate is growing along with protectionism. Even USA is on a path in that direction.

In addition to more and more leaders trying to control work-forces, and indeed whole nations, the onset of AI is also something I find most disturbing. There is a real risk that in the end it's not deranged leaders that try to control us, but computers/robots deciding they simply do not need us and simply wipe us out.

With computers evolving exponentially, few of us are capable of grasping where we will be just a decade from now. It can be good, but it can also be very grim.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: jonno51 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:00 am

The thread has moved on from workplace surveillance to another and more interesting/worrying topic. One that is too complicated to go into here, in the depth it deserves.

It will be interesting to see if current events in Zimbabwe result in an improvement in the standard of living for the majority, or just a change of control from one oppressor to another. Death to all tyrants!
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:12 am

faffi wrote:Excellent post, Greg. It really is worrying, both the surveillance and onset of political dictatorship. We have been used to see this in several countries, but now we see it in countries which have been considered liberal and free for quite some time. Austria is one such nation that have surprised me for some years now, with extremists gaining support. But you see, in addition to the nations you mentioned, a similar, albeit at the moment less strong, trend in Sweden, Netherlands and more recently Spain. Also to some extent here in Norway, where fear and hate is growing along with protectionism. Even USA is on a path in that direction.


Well you know, this is my filed of research as a historian working and studying at the institute for contemporary history here in Vienna. With regards to Austria, it's not that surprising really as the de-nazi-fication really started (very half-assedly) in the 1980ies after it turned out that the former UN-General-Secretary and (about to be) re-elected Austrian president Kurt Waldheim was actually an officer of the SS, which he denied until an Austrian newpaper released his army papers...

As an avid reader of Orwell, I hate to admit that by now I am totally convinced that all it takes to control a country is a constant state of fear.

Zimbabwe is an incredibly interesting case, mainly because the media (and probably lots of statesmen as a result) have no clue, what's really going on. Is it a coup? Did Mugabe die last night? Is it actually true what the army claims, that they're going after some rogue politicians? Exciting times.

But as Johnno pointed out, this might be going towards being a tad too political for a bike forum, so I guess I'll better have my mouthhole shut for a while.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: Jake » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:50 am

jonno51 wrote:The thread has moved on from workplace surveillance to another and more interesting/worrying topic. One that is too complicated to go into here, in the depth it deserves.


It can be moved or split to the Clubhouse


nanno wrote:
But as Johnno pointed out, this might be going towards being a tad too political for a bike forum, so I guess I'll better have my mouthhole shut for a while.


Not at all too political, this is the Park Bench. As noted above, it can be moved to the Clubhouse, that's why we have sub forums.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: faffi » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:01 pm

nanno wrote:
faffi wrote:
As an avid reader of Orwell, I hate to admit that by now I am totally convinced that all it takes to control a country is a constant state of fear.



Too right! And the press and various governments continue to do their part to instill fear. So instead of having trained personnel looking for suspicious passengers at airport terminals, we get a system where nobody really pays attention because they rely on the detection system. But it is at the same time a splendid way for keeping track of people.

People also ask for cameras in the streets, on the buses, on trains - just about every public area. You could argue that it is to deter criminals and collect evidence, but it is also a way to keep track of people. Plus it makes sure people are worried - we need cameras for protection because things are dangerous.

We also see the right wing claiming refugees are dangerous, muslims are dangerous, that they plan to take over our countries and religions. Yes, there are elements of that, but the vast majority do not represent a danger. Instead, they are mostly assets. Heck, 1000 years ago, Norway got Christened with methods not unlike what we have seen ISIL use; those who refused to change from Odin to Jesus would literally lose their heads. Often on the spot. Torture was also used. Later, Christian missionaries have traveled the globe trying to convert muslims and believers of other gods into Christianity. Usually by telling stories to instill fear; if you do not believe, you will burn forever in Hell. Nice :;:

Hitler used fear of the Jews primarily to make otherwise sensible Germans accept killings en masse. Putin use fear to control a huge nation. Erdogan has made almost a 180-degree turn and now Turkey has been thrown back to the dark ages. Sad.

In Norway, there is currently a debate raging about whether our police should carry weapons or not. Those in favour shout that they want the police to be able to protect them, those against point out that crime rates here are exceptionally low and that armed police is more likely to cause villains to be more likely to also carry arms to protect them. Personally, I hope we continue as of today, where the police have weapons locked inside their vehicles, but not on their bodies. I like the signal it gives; no weapons indicate we are safe.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: eslmatt » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:28 am

I forgot a suitcase in the back of a taxi. So I went to the taxi office. I gave them general time and location that I got in the taxi, and where and when I got out of the taxi. Then they searched the taxi database for taxis that matched my information. They checked the street cctv feed to make sure it was me getting into the taxi. Then they called the driver and found out which depot the bag was at and had him meet me at the end of the day with the bag.

All the monitoring was really helpful this time. :bg:

But the fear is how lots of people are controlled. Fear controls you; I fear getting killed on the road, so I don't try to go 100mph. I fear getting hit by a car, so I am very careful crossing the street. (even if I have the right of way)

I also liked 1984.
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Re: 1984 is here

PostAuthor: faffi » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:42 pm

Good to see you can still contribute to this forum, at least :cl:
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