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Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Dhurt_1988 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:53 pm

Hi, I'm new here. Just got a 1992 Virago 750. Well I went to install a new battery, I connected the starter and positive to the positive terminal, ground to negative. First it tried turning over, then got hot and ground was smoking. I then checked the relay, it is good. Then I tried installing another battery, except the positive was sparking and the ground was and with key off sometimes when attaching ground it would start to turn over. There's power when key off, Sparks when attaching, drains fast too when turning over. There doesn't appear to be a short, and starter relay is good. It only happens when I attach the starter wire (big black wire from starter to batt-poss+?) My other wiring is good, lights, key on, buttons, blinkers, etc. I want to ride my baby again soon any help is appreciated. Thanks
Damien Hurt

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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: mark75 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:17 pm

Howdy.
Welcome to VTF.

perhaps a short in the starter itself?
it may take some MM/VOM detective work to find it.

electricity is mysterious mystical to me. but you've come to the right place, someone here will have a better answer for you.
"Over the Mountains of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride" ... E.A. Poe


Time flies >>> whether you're having fun __ :bike: or not :fan: ---

Any day above ground is a good day.
so Laissez les bon temps roulez. just roll safely --- Semper Vigilans...always watchful

"I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand." ... Confucius*

If you don't read the news you are not informed.
If you read the news you are misinformed.
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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: bstig60 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:19 pm

Starter solenoid either shorted or the starter relay is bad. Disconnect the main fuse and let us know what happens.
Bill
"It´s a friggen motorcycle, it´s not supposed to be comfortable, quiet or safe. The wind noise is supposed to hurt your ears, the seat should be hard and riding it should make you s**t your pants every now and then. "

Please take the time to edit your profile to show your location. City, State/Province, and Country.
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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Dhurt_1988 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:29 pm

The relay tested good. 93.8 ohms of resistance, someone rewired it. I'll disconnect the fuse later and what should I be looking for? My one suspicion is they wired it backwards. The relay new also getting proper battery terminal to connect them instead of old garage bolt. This morning it kept draining the battery and not getting enough juice to turn over.
I'm not a fan of electrical, but I'm doing what I can. Should I check the fuse at starter or go get one just in case before hand. Thank you for your help I really appreciate it

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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Dhurt_1988 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:35 pm

Won't turn over. Removed main fuse nothing happened. And the bike will not turn over, when I push the start button the light turns off then back on and oil and fuel light come on

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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: mark75 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:00 pm

re-check the "safety" switches are working properly.
side-stand one is infamous for sticking.

have you had the battery load-tested?
auto parts stores generally will do it for free, hoping to sell you a new battery.
"Over the Mountains of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride" ... E.A. Poe


Time flies >>> whether you're having fun __ :bike: or not :fan: ---

Any day above ground is a good day.
so Laissez les bon temps roulez. just roll safely --- Semper Vigilans...always watchful

"I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand." ... Confucius*

If you don't read the news you are not informed.
If you read the news you are misinformed.
... Mark Twain


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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: bstig60 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:52 am

Dhurt_1988 wrote:The relay tested good. 93.8 ohms of resistance, someone rewired it. I'll disconnect the fuse later and what should I be looking for? My one suspicion is they wired it backward. The relay new also getting proper battery terminal to connect them instead of old garage bolt. This morning it kept draining the battery and not getting enough juice to turn over.
I'm not a fan of electrical, but I'm doing what I can. Should I check the fuse at the starter or go get one just in case beforehand. Thank you for your help I really appreciate it


The starter solenoid cannot be wired backward. It has ground on one terminal all the time. When the starter button is pushed, it puts out a ground which activates the start relay, which then puts +12v out to the starter solenoid. The solenoid contacts close and activate the starter. Disconnect the cable at the starter, using a couple of clip leads, connect the positive lead from your DVM to the battery cable and the negative lead to a good ground. Push the start button and check to see if you have 12 at the starter cable. The meter should be set on 20 VDC scale.
Bill
"It´s a friggen motorcycle, it´s not supposed to be comfortable, quiet or safe. The wind noise is supposed to hurt your ears, the seat should be hard and riding it should make you s**t your pants every now and then. "

Please take the time to edit your profile to show your location. City, State/Province, and Country.
It is easier to help you if we know where you are.


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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Arjay » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:52 am

I could of sworn mine was directional. Having the battery cable towards front terminal of solenoid (toward front of bike) and short lead to starter behind and it started. I had it the other way and only got a click. But I admit this makes no sense for a solenoid, being just an electromagnet plunger, making contact for the starter after engaging starter gear. Might had been shorting. At the time I had thought maybe the plunger was being pushed not pulled. I know its suppose to pull because of the arm with the star bolt. That or I was thinking the solenoid would close contacts either way but the contact arrangement reversed starter direction. I could swear I did it twice just to confirm it. Now it starts but Im tempted to switch them again, I gotta know. Brb...!

Update: Well, I was right. Swapping the two solenoid leads and it refused to start.

First I took negative off battery, swapped leads, as soon as I touched negative battery cable to post I got a spark, that was with ignition off. I made doubly/triple sure that terminals where not grounding. I even checked for the parasitic drain on each wire individually connected. The battery lead caused it, but no tiny spark when connected the other way.

I remembered I did this before and it wouldnt start then also. I checked both cables an adjusted position and still the tiny spark with ignition off.

I swapped back, battery wire to front, jumper to starter behind. No tiny parasite spark and started fine.

It might be that on some models the ground is supplied to solenoid by frame and switch wire provides power to solenoid. Maybe on some models its negative based switching as opposed to positive switching. I know this contradicts other switching Yamaha does, take horns for example I think they are negative based switching (constant power supplied to device and switch provides negative/ground to complete circuit).

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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: bstig60 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:51 pm

Arjay wrote:I could of sworn mine was directional. Having the battery cable towards front terminal of solenoid (toward front of bike) and short lead to starter behind and it started. I had it the other way and only got a click. But I admit this makes no sense for a solenoid, being just an electromagnet plunger, making contact for the starter after engaging starter gear. Might had been shorting. At the time I had thought maybe the plunger was being pushed not pulled. I know its suppose to pull because of the arm with the star bolt. That or I was thinking the solenoid would close contacts either way but the contact arrangement reversed starter direction. I could swear I did it twice just to confirm it. Now it starts but Im tempted to switch them again, I gotta know. Brb...!

Update: Well, I was right. Swapping the two solenoid leads and it refused to start.

First I took negative off battery, swapped leads, as soon as I touched negative battery cable to post I got a spark, that was with ignition off. I made doubly/triple sure that terminals where not grounding. I even checked for the parasitic drain on each wire individually connected. The battery lead caused it, but no tiny spark when connected the other way.

I remembered I did this before and it wouldnt start then also. I checked both cables an adjusted position and still the tiny spark with ignition off.

I swapped back, battery wire to front, jumper to starter behind. No tiny parasite spark and started fine.

It might be that on some models the ground is supplied to solenoid by frame and switch wire provides power to solenoid. Maybe on some models its negative based switching as opposed to positive switching. I know this contradicts other switching Yamaha does, take horns for example I think they are negative based switching (constant power supplied to device and switch provides negative/ground to complete circuit).

Rj

Makes no sense at all. The solenoid has two functions on the second Gen bikes. One is to engage the starter clutch and the other is to connect the set of contacts together to activate the starter. It shouldn't make any difference which big posts the battery cable is on as long the the short cable to the starter is on the other.
OP: no harm in checking this out. If what Aray says is the case, it would be good for others to know.
Bill
"It´s a friggen motorcycle, it´s not supposed to be comfortable, quiet or safe. The wind noise is supposed to hurt your ears, the seat should be hard and riding it should make you s**t your pants every now and then. "

Please take the time to edit your profile to show your location. City, State/Province, and Country.
It is easier to help you if we know where you are.


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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Cusstout 1100 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:11 pm

I concur with what Arjay is saying, and yes, it makes no sense to me either, but that is exactly what happens on the '85 (86?) 750 I'm working on. Because it flies in the face of reason, it took me quite a while to figure it out. It has 3 wires, one heavy one from the battery, one heavy one to the starter motor, and the small blue/white (provides ground to the solenoid) from the start switch. No relay in the system, just that solenoid mounted to the frame just behind the motor. Looking at TRV's bare bones for the 750 and 1000 systems, this looks like it might be sort of a cross-over between the two???
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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: totallyredvirago » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:03 am

in this video the very beginning you can see how the starter cables are hooked up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ing3V3Xhnyo

in this video it shows the cables better.......... dan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... SU5TbMeca4
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no time to do it right..always enough time to do it twice.
it is if is isnt :con:
If it went together easy... you forgot something.
when in doubt.... ground it out!

http://www.viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=35947 (bare bones wiring81-83 xv750)
http://www.viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=48895 (91 up xv750 bare bones)
http://www.viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=36987(84-85 xv700,1000 bare bones)

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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Flyingdog » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:13 am

TRV....
Thanks for that..was the exact vid I was looking for (first one), but couldn't find it. Did come across your the postings of "all" your, various, wiring schematics, but didn't think that would help much. Not that good at bookmark'n stuff.
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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Cusstout 1100 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:57 am

Sorry guys, not meaning to confuse the issue by my post. I guess the 750 I'm working is older than I thought - probably a Gen 1 starter system?. (Also a Canadian bike, if that makes any difference...). The solenoid looks like a relay and is mounted to the frame just behind the motor on the right side; therefor, it has a short cable from positive of the battery and a long heavy cable up to the starter motor. Not meaning to thread-jack here, just trying to eliminate any confusion that might arise from my original response here.
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Re: Battery and won't start

PostAuthor: Flyingdog » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:31 pm

Cusstout 1100 wrote: probably a Gen 1 starter system?.


Ahhh..no problem here..was kinda scratch'n me head, wondering where this whole thing was going...why I just stepped back and let others hash it out. :bg:
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