Forum Donations
Search
VTF Google Search
 Click Here

The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

  • Advertisement

Post a reply

The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:52 am

A while back, I've built a little turbo-setup for Yamaha XVs to have a bit of dragracing fun. And it was pretty good. Unfortunately, I can't always have fun with turbos and in all fairness there's another bike in my workshop, which does HEAPS more miles every week, than the turbo has done in the last two years.

Now, my current engine is a classic "euro-style" TR1 engine build: XV1100 rotating assembly with 750 heads on a set of TR1 cases. This works to my absolute satisfaction and does the job just fine. Realistically it will push out a healthy 70 to 80 horsepower and tons of torque as low as 2500rpm. Putting 750 heads on a TR1/XV1100 engine pushes the compression up to a healthy 9.x, which spices things up quite a bit, but it comes at the price of breathability of the engine or in other words: The powerband ends at 6000rpm.

Originally, when I started this engine build (waaaaay too long ago - in June last year) this was meant to be a hopped up version of above recipe, but with bigger valves installed in a set of XV700 heads:

Image

http://greasygreg.blogspot.co.at/2017/0 ... part1.html

I inspected the parts rather thoroughly:

Image

http://greasygreg.blogspot.co.at/2017/1 ... inder.html

Image

http://greasygreg.blogspot.co.at/2017/1 ... art-3.html

and then basically built the engine until it was almost done.

At this I did a lot of measuring and realized two things, in order to make proper power:
1) the squish has to be tightened up a lot ( on the one hand to improve swirl and thus more power, but also as better squish means cooler combustion)
2) there's no way to fit the big inlet valves in the 700 or 750 heads, without turning them down at least one mm

After a long chat with Sepp Koch and picking his brains and trying to get the info out of him, because quite frankly in the last 35 years the man has tried pretty much everything except forced induction on the TR1 and just KNOWS. As the numbers for the squishband-clearance and (what I consider) sensible compression matched with what I had calculated earlier, I decided to weld up a set of TR1 heads to decrease the volume of the combustion chamber and shorten the cylinders accordingly.

Sounds like a straight-forward plan?

That's when life kicked in, in the form of another BT1100 engine. For those that don't know it: BT1100 is the sporty Buell-style bike, based around the V-star 1100 engine. Bigger fins, nikasil-lined cylinders, lighter rotating assembly(2.8kg lighter !!!) than
the old XV1100 may kill some low-down torque, but should make the ol' girl rev-up even faster and keep the rotating masses under control.

Image

So that's where we stand at the moment. I aim at doing an update approx. once a week, but as I am also working on some other projects (there's a new turbo-build, I've got a new to me XT500 4valve and my XS-Triple sidecar wants some attention too, let alone stuff I do on my dad's and some friend's bikes.)
Last edited by nanno on Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: faffi » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:16 am

:urock: :pop:
User avatar
faffi
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2984
Images: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:11 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1982 XV750SE with XV1100 engine, XT600Z shock absorber, 18" Seca rear wheel
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:18 am

Love it!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Pete
'12 Tuono V4R APRC
'05 R6 Track Bike
'88 RD350 YPVS
'82 XV920RJ
User avatar
Hellgate
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Austin, Texas Flag
Bike year & model: '82 XV920R
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Mon May 07, 2018 12:41 am

I am still "a tad" busier than I admittedly like to be, but at the very least I was able to squeeze-in a little tooling upgrade.
One of the tools that I absolutely had to build was a decently-sized flycutter to skim the heads after welding up the combustion chambers.

For that reason, one is suppsoed to take an obscenely large (just shy of 5"/120mm) piece of (tool-)steel and chuck it in the lathe and square it up. Any old steel would have been sufficient, but this is what surfaced first in my stash.

Image

Centre-drill it and find out that you grabbed a 17 instead of a 16mm drill...

Image

... and turn a little centre-boss to shrink in.

Image

And as you have to mill down the flycutter's arbor on at least the side where you want to tap it, you might as well balance it and mill the backside flat as well.

Image

And this picture was actually taken BEFORE milling the backside flat, so it was completely out of balance and still, this was the kind of surface finish that was achieved in a single (interrupted) pass. Oh and that is roughly about the worst butter-grade ally that is known to man, so the finish on the much harder aluminium of the cylinder heads should yield much nicer results.

Image

Effectively, now the finish is good enough, so you can still see the ridges, but hardly feel them with your fingernail. Which should definitely do for the job and give the headgasket something to bite in. Next step will be to make a fixture for the cylinder heads so, I can safely clamp them down when milling and also have repeatable results.

Blog: http://greasygreg.blogspot.co.at/2018/0 ... d-fly.html
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: faffi » Mon May 07, 2018 2:37 am

:GJ:
User avatar
faffi
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2984
Images: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:11 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1982 XV750SE with XV1100 engine, XT600Z shock absorber, 18" Seca rear wheel
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Very nice. [emoji3]

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Pete
'12 Tuono V4R APRC
'05 R6 Track Bike
'88 RD350 YPVS
'82 XV920RJ
User avatar
Hellgate
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Austin, Texas Flag
Bike year & model: '82 XV920R
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Mon May 14, 2018 12:32 am

Now that this lovely flycutter is in the shop, it needs to be fed. So I grabbed an old XT500 head, which was really only good as a cooling-fin-donor and see if all I had thought up would actually work out in the real world.

The biggest issue with all of this is to get enough heat into the casting and secondly find a filler that will actually work satisfyingly.

Image

Funnily enough, the 4047 (AlSi12) filler didn't work at all. It instantly crystalized and even if I did get it to work, well just look at the last picture. 5356 (AlMg5) was used and wetted out nicely and uniformly.

Image

As can be seen, a lot of "peppering" occured, even though the cast had been brushed and because that didn't yield satisfactory results even ground a bit with a handheld endmill. I suspect, with the real heads, I will have one or two cleaning passes and then grind out what I just welded up, to get rid of most of the imperfections.

Image

The flycutter on the other hand was an instant success. It doesn't care much for the welds sticking out and will take out 1mm just as it will do with 2mm (approx. 1/10"). The head has been decked 0.1mm (2 thou) just to see how close I can get it. It's hard to judge by the picture alone, but the finish is good enough for a headgasket.

Next step is to find the best way to reshape the parts that have been welded up to give the combustion chamber its final shape. Which in the case of the TR1.1 will simply be straight. So I suspect, the main part will be done in the mill and only the last bit will be touched up with a die grinder.

Blog-Link: http://greasygreg.blogspot.co.at/2018/0 ... p-and.html
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Thu May 17, 2018 6:10 am

Instead of TIG, it turns out MIG with ER5356 (AlMg5) is the ticket to fast buildup and massive penetration into the head. I will run some more preliminary tests today and tomorrow and then there'll be some pics.
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: faffi » Thu May 17, 2018 11:38 am

Keep this up and I will run out of popcorn :cl:
User avatar
faffi
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2984
Images: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:11 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1982 XV750SE with XV1100 engine, XT600Z shock absorber, 18" Seca rear wheel
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed May 23, 2018 5:45 am

Well, the fixture is done and to be fair even the actual heads have already been welded up, but honestly the documentation is lagging behind a little compared to the actual work, which frankly is a good thing, because the other way round would be way more unpleasant.

So here goes: 4 60mm of 30mm diameter ally roundstock as those XV-heads are one-piece items and as such don't have a valve-cover-gasket surface, one could index to.

Image

Turned down and drilled and tapped on both sides:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Now this is, where the tricky part comes in: How do you clamp something down, when you can't have a stud, nut, bolt-head protrude over the surface? Well, pretty much the same way a milling collet works, but pushing to the outside.

Image

Torquing the countersounk bolts down results in the heads of the studs spreading and thereby safely clamping the head down.

Image

And then in the end you need a baseplate to mount everything to:

Image

Image

Image

Blog-Link (for more pictures and other posts): http://greasygreg.blogspot.co.at/2018/0 ... aking.html
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: faffi » Wed May 23, 2018 6:19 am

:GJ:

the documentation is lagging behind a little compared to the actual work, which frankly is a good thing, because the other way round would be way more unpleasant


:rotfl: :lmao:
User avatar
faffi
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2984
Images: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:11 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1982 XV750SE with XV1100 engine, XT600Z shock absorber, 18" Seca rear wheel
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed May 23, 2018 6:35 am

It's actually looking really sweet, but there's one question that some of you can maybe help me out with, what the max. compression ratio you guys get away with? Mr. Hellgate, Mr. CRDNick?

Currently I am at OVER 11:1 at the most conservative calculation and more realistically somewhere closer to 11.5:1 to 11.8:1. Which basically is cool with me, because with a tight squishband* it certainly would work in a racing engine, but I want to use this as a daily and I think, I should rather aim for 10.5:1 at the very most...

*Something that this engine will get regardless of CR, because I've had tremendous success on RD-two-strokes with that.

Any input is, as usual, much appreciated.
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Wed May 23, 2018 6:41 am

10.6:1.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Pete
'12 Tuono V4R APRC
'05 R6 Track Bike
'88 RD350 YPVS
'82 XV920RJ
User avatar
Hellgate
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Austin, Texas Flag
Bike year & model: '82 XV920R
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Wed May 23, 2018 9:07 am

Pacific Coast Star tried a number of compression ratios as they developed their engine packages. They settled on 10.25:1, and 10.6:1. They found 11:1 too high. Another, now gone Virago performance place copied their work but sold 11:1.

That said, with your modified heads and squish area, 11 or higher may work well.

What cam are you considering?

I think if I was to build my motor again I would have gone with the highest lift cam PCS/Web Cam sells. The reason I didn't was for rideability, less value train wear, and less cost. No dual springs required and no special retainers required. In hindsight I probably should have just bought them.

Curious to hear your thoughts.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Pete
'12 Tuono V4R APRC
'05 R6 Track Bike
'88 RD350 YPVS
'82 XV920RJ
User avatar
Hellgate
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Austin, Texas Flag
Bike year & model: '82 XV920R
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed May 23, 2018 10:05 am

I agree with you, I guess due to the big squish area and tight squish height, I may get away with one or the other little folly such as a very high compression.

Now this may come as a shock, but for starters, I will just go with a set of good condition Gen1 cams. My mate Mike has offered to do a regrind on one of my sets of older/used cams, but I will keep valve-lift/timing rather reasonable. Why? Well, as I initially pointed out, this is a daily, I will actually go down to the softer inner springs out of a XV1100 and combine them with the harder outer springs out of a TR1 to reduce strain on the valve train.

Personally I agree with your concept of going with hottest cam you can get away with, as a matter of fact, most of the cam-profiles out there are very top-end oriented and as such don't really fit the bill for me. (Which is why Mike offered to do a profile for me, based on an old BMW-Endurance-racing profile.)

(I'll add to this in a bit)
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed May 23, 2018 12:12 pm

As a matter of fact these 2V-heads don't breath too well, so any help in the shape or form of a cam can only be VERY beneficial. Sepp once said, that a good cam on his racing TR1 (back then when he was racing almost stock engines with 750 heads), was worth somewhere around 10 to 15 horsepower. This is of course amplified, when you use the 1000 head with bigger valves.

And that's exactly where the similarities between racing engines and road going engines end. On a racing engine you will want a cam with huge lift and a massive ramp that basically unleashes a 6-lane highway into the combustion chamber. (Some even go as far as fitting a 49mm (+2mm) inletvalve. All of that is good for either the racetrack or bragging in the pub in front of your mates.)

With that being said, I'd go for a cam with slightly more duration and quite a bit more lift (the stock valve springs on Gen1 are stupid-hard anyway), so one of those cams that bump the lift into the .410s or the like, that'll definitely liven things up. If it's a sensible profile you will not actually lose anything or much in the low-end. But I like to have usable power from as low as 2500 -3000 RPM so by now I am even a bit concerned that my choice of BT1100 crank might affect that adversely too much for my taste. On the other hand, the kilos lost will help the crankshaft ball bearings to have an a lot easier life at the kind of higher RPMs I run the bike. Classic case of get it done 'n' see. Worst case scenario? Someone on here will get some rather tricked out parts and I get to build another engine.
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Wed May 23, 2018 12:39 pm

Interesting set up; high compression, mild cam. It should have great mid-range. Will you port the heads too? I can't prove porting add much, but it did clean up the airflow, and in turn mixing of air a fuel.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Pete
'12 Tuono V4R APRC
'05 R6 Track Bike
'88 RD350 YPVS
'82 XV920RJ
User avatar
Hellgate
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Austin, Texas Flag
Bike year & model: '82 XV920R
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: nanno » Wed May 23, 2018 2:05 pm

Yes and midrange with a bit more on the top is what I am after. 90hp at the rear wheel shouldn't be too difficult to achieve and that is plenty for me. And yes, I will port the heads, even though in all fairness, they are pretty nice from the start, so there's not too much to gain. A three-angle valve job, a bit of clean up on some casting flash and some minimal work around the valve guide is all these heads will need in my book.

(I am sorry, if I disappoint you by being rather modest in my goals, but it's a daily after all... I used to have a highly modified Kawa Zed before this TR1 and it had become completely useless in its everyday role.)
http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43227 - Nanno's accumulated findings (and blatant show-off) - infos on my TR1's, my performance and reliability mods and a bit of show-casing of the stainless steel exhausts I build

*Look to my profile for a link to my blog*
User avatar
nanno
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 1343
Images: 1
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1981 Yamaha TR1
1982 Yamaha TR1 Turbo
1977 XS 750 Sidecar
1984 XT500 4Valve (Austrian Tax saving edition)
1979 RD250/R5/DS7-hodgepodge (in bits)
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: faffi » Wed May 23, 2018 3:36 pm

According to MOTORRAD, the BT1100 was also a grunter that was mostly finished at 4500 rpm. https://www.motorradonline.de/test/verg ... 04907.html

The way I understand it, a mild cam + high compression gives a higher risk for detonation than a long duration cam + high compression because the actual compression will be lower when intake mixture is lost during overlap.
User avatar
faffi
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2984
Images: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:11 pm
  Flag
Bike year & model: 1982 XV750SE with XV1100 engine, XT600Z shock absorber, 18" Seca rear wheel
Sex: Male

Re: The "mule" Nanno's new naturally aspirated motor

PostAuthor: Hellgate » Wed May 23, 2018 5:09 pm

faffi wrote:According to MOTORRAD, the BT1100 was also a grunter that was mostly finished at 4500 rpm. https://www.motorradonline.de/test/verg ... 04907.html

The way I understand it, a mild cam + high compression gives a higher risk for detonation than a long duration cam + high compression because the actual compression will be lower when intake mixture is lost during overlap.
Yes, however alot depends on combustion chamber efficientcy too. With the head work Nanno's doing, it may negate that.

Thanks for the link to the Bulldog. I didn't know that bike existed. Is it a fuel goes injected bike? Kinda fugly...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Pete
'12 Tuono V4R APRC
'05 R6 Track Bike
'88 RD350 YPVS
'82 XV920RJ
User avatar
Hellgate
Silver Membership
Silver Membership
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Austin, Texas Flag
Bike year & model: '82 XV920R
Sex: Male


Next

Post a reply


  • Advertisement

Return to Yamaha XV920R / TR1

Who is online

Registered users: Ita